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Yogi
Site Admin
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 736
Location: Seattle, WA
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 Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:28 am Post subject: OPEN COMMENTARY ON THE SESSION DIARIES HERE |
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OK, just to defend myself a little bit here on the "make Pete work really hard on a drum fill only to tell him 'I don't like it'" thing:
Am I really 'sposed ta pass judgement on something like that before it's done?!? It took a while for Pete to figure out what he was gonna do, and even then it was changing every attempt, and then he'd get one and say, "Nah, let me try it again!" Aren't I supposed to wait until he says, "Yeah! That's what I'm trying to do right there!" before crushing his drum fill dreams? 
I thought I was being a conscientious producer! But no, I'm the Eeeeevil One!
Too bad we didn't videotape that little sequence, that would have been plenty of evidence to exonerate me. |
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snow lizard
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 95
Location: up and to the left
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:10 am Post subject: Re: OPEN COMMENTARY ON THE SESSION DIARIES HERE |
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| Yogi wrote: | OK, just to defend myself a little bit here on the "make Pete work really hard on a drum fill only to tell him 'I don't like it'" thing:
<snip> |
I wasn't there, and I don't know what Pete played, but I like spastic drumming. Without really knowing what's going on here, I'd have to side with Pete, I guess. 
It sounds very cool that you're giving the band members enough creative flex to try out different stuff, whether it makes the cut or not. It seems like a very open-ended, comfortable approach. Kind of like what Keneally does. "Too much bozouki." Ultimately the players have to give their best to the tracks, and the producer has to guide the vision and act as a sort of creative catalyst. Kind of like what Obi Wan Kenobi did on the Death Star. "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." You don't need to see his identification. Something like that, anyway.
On a general note, it's really cool to read these session diary things. It's a lot of extra insight into the creation of this album. If anything, it's making me more curious to hear the finished product (no pressure or anything!), but as many of us are somewhat familiar with the recording process, it's entertaining reading so far.
On a more specific note,
| Pete wrote: | Lizzy and Yogi go out to get a drum head, while I set up drums and Darin sets up mics. We talk gear-- all about mics and preamps and fun stuff like that.
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A couple of years ago I tried to scrounge up as much information as I could on this sort of thing. Especially microphones, as I'm not shopping for preamps any time soon. Still, there's always more to learn. It might be a bit on the geeky side, but I love these kinds of discussions.
sl |
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Pete
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:20 am Post subject: Evil needs no defence |
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Now let's not all jump to any conclusions about me being scarred for life over a certain drum fill incident, nor let us get the impression that the Yogster is some kind of control freak who scores out drum fills.
No, drum fills are really a dime a dozen; the important thing is to play a song. In fact, I was very happy that Yogi had an opinion on the matter.
I guess the crux of the biscuit is that I thought I was playing the same thing over and over, while everyone else heard "a twisty little maze of passages, all different". This is either the very definition of insanity, or a day's work in the studio. Often, they are one and the same.
_________________
If you don't beat the drum the loudest, you don't get heard!
-- P.T. Barnum |
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Yogi
Site Admin
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 736
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:21 am Post subject: Re: OPEN COMMENTARY ON THE SESSION DIARIES HERE |
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| snow lizard wrote: | | On a general note, it's really cool to read these session diary things. |
Yay! Glad to hear that folks are digging these accounts, and it's really nice for me to not be the ONLY voice describing things around here. Heck, maybe I can get Darin to write a thread here, but he'll probably just use his thoughts page (there's a link there now to some pretty amusing pictures of Lizzy's last sessions in January, along with some photos of the mic/cabinet setups for when I was recently doing some gee-tar work on the demo stuff). I captured the video of the weekend's events from the Lizzy-cam last night, so there will soon be some video and pitchas to peruse around here, too.
Next week, bass! |
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Lizzy
half-pint demigod
Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 151
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:29 pm Post subject: Re: Evil needs no defence |
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| Pete wrote: | nor let us get the impression that the Yogster is some kind of control freak who scores out drum fills.
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Well....he programs drum machines. Whatsamatter, you don't want to play all those crash cymbal hits he painstakingly programmed?  |
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Edovinus
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 81
Location: Voorburg NL
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:52 am Post subject: |
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The session diaries are great. Keep it up!
Rock! |
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snow lizard
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 95
Location: up and to the left
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:01 am Post subject: Re: OPEN COMMENTARY ON THE SESSION DIARIES HERE |
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| Yogi wrote: | | Heck, maybe I can get Darin to write a thread here, but he'll probably just use his thoughts page |
There's some interesting pics in there.
If you scroll down to where the Marshall cab is, there's some pictures of the mic setups. The close mic on the right looks like some kind of Neumann U87 knockoff, of which there are hundreds. I'm really curious about the one on the left. It looks like it might be a ribbon mic. Anyone know what that thing is?
Also, the sparkling green MKRMHO shirt looks very sporting.
Now if you go here, there's some more pictures.
Granted that the NHL is pretty much toast at this time, are there any plans for you to go into the studio with other members of the Vancouver Canucks?
sl |
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Yogi
Site Admin
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 736
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:11 am Post subject: Re: OPEN COMMENTARY ON THE SESSION DIARIES HERE |
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| snow lizard wrote: | | I'm really curious about the one on the left. It looks like it might be a ribbon mic. Anyone know what that thing is? |
I know Darin has been goofing around with ribbon mics of late. He's been mic'ing the BACK of speaker cabs a lot lately, too. I'm pretty uncurious about his mic schemes, I just sit in the control room and noodle until he comes back from the main room. And then I play and say, "Sounds great!"
| snow lizard wrote: | | Granted that the NHL is pretty much toast at this time, are there any plans for you to go into the studio with other members of the Vancouver Canucks? |
Hee. I've been watching Timpe's blog for any NHL rants, but I don't know that I've seen any. He's a season ticket holder, or at least he was the last time there were any NHL games to watch. |
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Pete
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:04 am Post subject: Re: OPEN COMMENTARY ON THE SESSION DIARIES HERE |
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| snow lizard wrote: |
There's some interesting pics in there.
If you scroll down to where the Marshall cab is, there's some pictures of the mic setups. The close mic on the right looks like some kind of Neumann U87 knockoff, of which there are hundreds. I'm really curious about the one on the left. It looks like it might be a ribbon mic. Anyone know what that thing is?
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Hi Snow Lizard! Pleased ta meetcha...!
I'm thinkin' the Neumann knockoff is a Groove Tubes/Alesis, and the one in question on the left looks suspiciously like a Royer, a ribbon mic. Don't know for certain or what models, but that's what it looks like to me.
A combination of a condenser and a ribbon is really cool on a guitar cab. I'm absolutely amazed at how much the sound changes depending on the mic you use and where you point that thing. You mentioned that the subject of preamps and mics is something you're in to, so I will share briefly a couple of intersting things I have tried in regards to guitar amps...
I generally use the venerable ol' SM57 for guitar cabs, but I have a few mics that also work well and can get a different sound. Sometimes the typical characteristics of a mic don't really seem to translate into a change in sound as expected. For example, you might think of a 57 as being "sharp" or "nasally" on a guitar amp, so, maybe you want to warm it up with, say, a Senn MD421. The difference is sound might reflect something other than simply "bright" vs. "warm".
I did a session once where I tried all my mics on a guitar amp, 57, 421, and RE20, only to come back to the 57 because it just cut through a bit better and "sounded more like an electric guitar is supposed to sound", even though the other tones were "better" in some ways.
Here's another fun mic to try on a guitar cab: an AKG D112-- bass drum mic. It has a huge, tight low end, and a presence boost around 4k. As an alternate mic or a doubled part it's a really cool sound, almost like using a different cab! It has a certain "shape" to the sound that is hard to describe but it is radically different. Some effects you just can't replicate with eq.
Ah, fun with mics....
While I'm on the subject I would like to mention that one great thing about working with Darin is that he has an uncanny knack for this sort of thing. He really knows how to capture the sound of an instrument, and is really good at choosing a mic and puting in the right place. Amazing, I tell you. And, as Yogi Berra said, "You can observe a lot just by watching"! I have indeed learned a lot from watching DDP operate. And I've observed a few things too...!
_________________
If you don't beat the drum the loudest, you don't get heard!
-- P.T. Barnum |
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snow lizard
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 95
Location: up and to the left
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: OPEN COMMENTARY ON THE SESSION DIARIES HERE |
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| Pete wrote: |
Hi Snow Lizard! Pleased ta meetcha...! |
Hey, Pete! Thanks for the mic comments.
I've tried a little bit of experimenting between mics with what I have here - I found that there really wasn't a big difference between my old 441 Sennheiser and a 57 on a guitar amp. The difference was more noticeable on vocals, and the 2 mics don't compare at all on kick drum or bass amp. I guess it depends on what kind of guitar amp you're using as well. The Cube 60 does not sound like a Marshall 4x12.
I'd love to have a ribbon mic in my collection, but a Royer would damn near equal the cost of my other 11 mics! And they're supposed to be worth it! Beyerdynamic makes some less expensive ones that are supposed to be both rugged and good sounding mics. I haven't found a distributor yet, plus there's still a bunch of dynamic stuff on my wishlist. RE20, MD421, SM7, D112.
The D112 on a guitar amp idea might be a fun thing to check out. My Beta 52 is the closest thing I have to a D112. Without haveing the AKG to compare the difference, the frequency chart things for these 2 mics look quite a bit different. The Beta 52 seems to scoop out more low mids, if I remember correctly.
I read an interesting article a while back with a guy that records live bands in stadiums for making albums. He was asked if he'd ever change or upgrade the mics used by the live sound company. The guy said he might add a couple of condensers to capture the audience, or add drum overheads if they're not being used. Other than that, he uses the same stuff that's there, be it 57's, Electro-Voice, Sennheiser or whatever. What he does is, after the stage techs set the mics up and before the sound check, he walks around on stage and repositions all the mics. Makes a guy wonder about how important that really is.
And from listening to ARF? and Salve, I'd have to agree that Darin is pretty damn good at that sort of thing.
As for preamps, I've heard good words about some stuff, bad words about other stuff, and loads of subjective bickering about what the differences are between certain things. Eventually I'd like to get some decent preamps, so it would be nice if someone could describe the differences between stuff like Joemeek, Focusrite, Great River and such. It seems to be a difficult task.
sl |
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Pete
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:30 pm Post subject: mics, preamps, and guitars, OH BOY! |
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A great place to read about the extremely subjective differences between mic pres is at rec.audio.pro, which can be found through Google Groups if you're not already hip to Usenet. There are some pros who hang out there and just LOVE to answer questions like "What's better: a Great River or a Focusrite?" <Ahem>
I haven't had the opportunity to personally A/B many preamps. I own one of those TL Audio preamp/compressor units, (Darin also has one) and I do like it for some signals, namely vocals. With the compressor slammed all the way on it is just fabulous on rock vocals. I tried it on acoustic guitar once and thought it sounded like a distortion box-- wretched... But... Darin said he liked it on acoustic. So who knows.. Maybe I used the wrong mic for the job, or maybe I had crappy tubes in there, I don't know.
Anyway, if you search the r.a.p. archives you will find references to a "preamp shootout" that someone conducted and published on CD. I would love to get my hands on this, but never bothered to track it down. I have read some of the track details about it and whoever put it together used a lot of great pres, and included things like Mackie consoles for comparison.
_________________
If you don't beat the drum the loudest, you don't get heard!
-- P.T. Barnum |
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Yogi
Site Admin
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 736
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:24 pm Post subject: DDP answers! |
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Darin just sent me the following:
here's a reply for ya to post:
the mic in question i do believe is an alesis AM51, which is actually a Groove Tubes 5SC in an alesis body after the "buy out" and before the "sell back". solid state large diaph condenser. the GT 5sc is one of my favorite all around mics. especially on acoustic guitar. the other mic is indeed a royer 121 ribbon, element facing forward for a bit of a darker sound (realizing the off-set ribbon set up of royer mics makes the backside of the figure 8 pattern brighter, but not as "spl" friendly. awesome for acoustic guitars though and uncranked marshalls...). the distance mic is an octavia ribbon- cheap but very cool- classic dark ribbon sound i believe. the mic on the pv 4x10 classic is a sennhiezer (sp?) 421.
on some of the old pics, the marshall has a Grove tubes MD2 on the main speaker and an AM51 on the outside.
though i very rarely use a 57 on anything these past 7 or 8 years, i've heard incredibly great recordings done with all 57's. the artist and the instruments are the biggest "affector of the tone" in my honest opinion. and a 57 in the hands of an experienced engineer sounds better then a nuemann in the hands of a novice.
ddp
So, uh... do we like need a gearhead thread or something around here? |
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Lizzy
half-pint demigod
Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 151
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Of course one of DDP's favorite phrases in the studio is "It's the indian, not the arrow".
Nice gear don't mean nothin' if there isn't the talent holding the instrument, or writing the song.  |
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Yogi
Site Admin
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 736
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:44 pm Post subject: Look out world! |
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| Lizzy wrote: | | Nice gear don't mean nothin' if there isn't the talent holding the instrument, or writing the song. |
Hmmmm... now THERE's a thread with potential... "Darin-isms!" |
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snow lizard
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 95
Location: up and to the left
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Look out world! |
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| Lizzy wrote: | | Nice gear don't mean nothin' if there isn't the talent holding the instrument, or writing the song. |
Absolutely true.
Yogi, tell Darin thanks for the response. I'm a novice at this stuff, but the photos and information helps, especially since I have audio to cross-reference this stuff to.
I've had dreams about owning an R-121, but I just put a roof on my house, I need a car and I'd like to pay down the mortgage. (WAAAAHHHHH!!!) A good ribbon mic is a very sweet thing, and those Royers are supposed to be damn near bullet proof, unlike practically any other ribbon mic. I like this guy's comments on 'em.
sl |
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